Yes, yes, that's all very necessary and impressive, but what about the larger issue of Google's supposed purchase of On2's IP assets, including their more recent and efficient codecs, in the scheme of HTML5?
It is really awesome to see Google pushing at least some support for Ogg Theora! Congratulations on that. It would be even more awesome if Google could use its acquisition of On2 to clear up any concerns that Google itself and Apple have over using ogg theora as the HTML5 baseline codec.
http://lwn.net/Articles/372566/
Are you going to help revert the bad decision that was made regarding this?
AWESOME! This is EXACTLY what the world needs. Now if only you guys at Google would quit working with the various fascist governments like the US government. I applaud you for the China pull out, but you should probably consider a US pullout too. This country has been just as evil since they shot JFK in the face.
Seriously though, supporting Theora is 100% the right move! I'll keep my gmail account another year at least! Thanks Google!
EXCELLENT! This is what the world needs! Thanks Google! Now quit giving governments (INCLUDING THE US!) access to email and you will fully fulfill your charter!
Innovators like Google were able to come into existence because they could build their service on the open technology of the web without going and asking the incumbent technology companies for permission.
We're at a crossroads now where web technology can continue its commitment to openness—or we can adopt Apple's model of closed systems, privately owned formats, and innovation by permission only.
This is really the crux of the web video debate—should the right to publish video that the world can view be controlled by a handful of large corporations? Or should this ability be freely available to anyone who has ideas and initiative?
It's really fantastic news to see Google putting a little more weight behind truly open systems… and that they aren't afraid that the next innovator might not be something that they control. Fantastic news, and a refreshing break from some of their peers in industry.
And, besides, 1280x720 video on a mobile phone processor— without any special hardware support beyond color-space conversion— is just freaking cool.
If Google makes the bold move and start serving their YouTube content in Ogg Theora will start real revolution. I know it's going to cost big money to Google, but social benefit would be enormous. Then Google could change their corporate slogan from "Don't be evil" to "Not only: Don't be evil, but actually be Good." That would be real evolution for the businesses and the world.
nice to see that google helps to push theora. only with a codec everyone can use for free and support in all major browsers for that codec, videos in the web will get the best usage :)
@CryptoQuick: If VP8 turns out to pretty much "just" be extensions to VP2 (what Theora is based on), Google could just use this to make a VP8ARM codec in weeks.
Chris DiBona of the Google open source group claimed that "If [youtube] were to switch to theora and maintain even a semblance of the current youtube quality it would take up most available bandwidth across the Internet."
Great news, so will google be supporting the free Theora format on HTML5 Youtube soon? Or sticking to the non-free H264? If there isn't consistency within one company then setting a standard is gonna be a struggle.
Theora can already playback in real time on an iPhone 3GS at native screen resolution, 25 fps, without any optimizations except for the final YUV2RGB stage.
Hardware decode support is a red herring. I've brought this up many times with various organizations, and once you demonstrate that decoding on a portable can in fact already be done, they admit that it's actually a political issue. It's just a convenient excuse to hide the real reasons.
Still, optimizing decode will reduce power consumption somewhat (but not a massive factor vs everything else in the system e.g backlight), will give some headroom, and is a laudable thing to do in any case.
You know what, this is dandy. Google just up its money where it's mouth is. It's also a sign that ARM is in Android's future. Good signs...
But, the elephant in the room is content. And with that in mind YouTube is king, if this is a sweeping policy within Google then YouTube has to tow the line... like it or not. And so far, I don't think that they have been willing to do so. So, that is the problem now... how to get Youtube to change tune on Ogg. Because as it stands, it's Youtube (and in part Google itself as the owners of YouTube) that stand in the way.
I know this will take a while, but like the other here, I would implore you to do it....
Because Flash is still not proliferating onto many ARM devices, it would be a great situation if YouTube had a fallback option of Theora and we could play video back on ARM based devices, given this work that you're funding.
I wholeheartedly welcome any move to kill any platform-centric technology. The sad fact is that the other king of the Net, Apple, is moving to the opposite direction. I hope Google and others do not give up. I might use Apple products but I am ready to ditch any of their service, while I cannot do the same for Google.
The FFmpeg Theora/VP3 decoder is, I'm told, faster than TheorARM on any reasonably new ARM device. This is actually the decoder shipped in Chrome, not any derivative of the official libtheora, so I wonder if anyone will really get much use out of this one, besides those that need a BSD-like license.
"Some use embedded Java players, but this restricts you to a viewing audience running on powerful enough devices to be able to decode video and audio in a virtual machine, excluding anything slower than a laptop"
but it's great with Theora, right? "In fact, on desktop/laptops realtime decode can be managed by an embedded Java player (such as the excellent free Cortado), enabling video playback on browsers still waiting to have video tag support added."
Apple's Maciej Stachowiak has some legal questions about the VP3 patent grant which she posted on the Xiph mailing list. It's regarding some of the subtle wording in the license text.
Now that Google owns On2, it would be a tremendous boost to simply publish a watertight patent license for VP3 (i.e. Theora) - that might well help get Apple to support it, and at the least it would help remove this argument against Theora.
Just a simple worldwide/non-exclusive/irrevocable/etc license, along the lines of Sun with the ODF format.
Chris: Its great that you're supporting theora by funding this work, but could you please point to tests that show this supposed superiority of h264 over theora??
So far I have seen 2 experiments which show just that theora is almost indistingishable from h.264 at the same but rates:
If I'm not mistaken FFMPEG also has native theora support and extensive set of optimizations for ARM, how does this project compare to FFMPEG regarding performance?
FFmpeg doesn't have a stable API and ABI, I've been told. So it isn't exactly desirable to use that in case a security issue crops up and it needs to be updated...
With all that I have said put to text, this does make me wonder if Google still has plans to open-source VP8, or if that was the plan at all.
@Chris DiBona:
You know, I have much respect for you but what you are saying on this subject seems baseless at the moment.
I know you have seen the internal workings of YouTube and how their infrastructure is handled. But this is the second time that I have seen you post "compared to later codecs, Theora still uses a lot more bandwidth for a similar quality stream." With very little evidence to that.
So I will ask, if it is in your power to do so, please... show us what evidence you have to back up your claim. If you can't and you can explain why you can't, that is understandable. Because as it stands from where I am sitting, you seem to be pluckling that from thin air every time that the subject comes up.
It seems to me, in retrospect, that Google bought On2 as part of a patent armoury to protect Theora when it's adopted for YouTube. Google's a big target and did not, up to that point, have a decent set of video patents.
In fact, there were probably 2 options on the table when On2 was acquired:
1. "Is VP8 unencumbered enough, or does it have a low-enough infringement surface area, that we could open-source it?" 2. "Failing (1), do we gain enough IP with the acquisition of On2 to protect Theora?"
I'm guessing that (1) failed. Google's sole motivation here is to increase the usefulness of the web across every device.
I think we'll see some input of improvements from VP8 into Theora and then a YouTube conversion to that format.
is this just me who notice license change from GPL to BSD-style? original post makes it almost poetic, while those who stay longer in this business know that BSD is used often to create proprietary chunks inside, leave alone it makes possible to stop providing source code at certain point just on deliberate decision by yet-another-manager...
You are welcome to contribute comments, but they should be relevant to the conversation. We reserve the right to remove off-topic remarks in the interest of keeping the conversation focused and engaging. Shameless self-promotion is well, shameless, and will get canned.
Yes, yes, that's all very necessary and impressive, but what about the larger issue of Google's supposed purchase of On2's IP assets, including their more recent and efficient codecs, in the scheme of HTML5?
ReplyDeleteIt is really awesome to see Google pushing at least some support for Ogg Theora! Congratulations on that. It would be even more awesome if Google could use its acquisition of On2 to clear up any concerns that Google itself and Apple have over using ogg theora as the HTML5 baseline codec.
ReplyDeletehttp://lwn.net/Articles/372566/
Are you going to help revert the bad decision that was made regarding this?
http://lwn.net/Articles/340132/
There is still the issue of Youtube only supplying H.264 . That decision was not very Google-y.
ReplyDeleteWhy not release the (presumably) better VP8 codec into the public domain?
ReplyDeleteAWESOME! This is EXACTLY what the world needs. Now if only you guys at Google would quit working with the various fascist governments like the US government. I applaud you for the China pull out, but you should probably consider a US pullout too. This country has been just as evil since they shot JFK in the face.
ReplyDeleteSeriously though, supporting Theora is 100% the right move! I'll keep my gmail account another year at least! Thanks Google!
EXCELLENT! This is what the world needs! Thanks Google! Now quit giving governments (INCLUDING THE US!) access to email and you will fully fulfill your charter!
ReplyDeleteInnovators like Google were able to come into existence because they could build their service on the open technology of the web without going and asking the incumbent technology companies for permission.
ReplyDeleteWe're at a crossroads now where web technology can continue its commitment to openness—or we can adopt Apple's model of closed systems, privately owned formats, and innovation by permission only.
This is really the crux of the web video debate—should the right to publish video that the world can view be controlled by a handful of large corporations? Or should this ability be freely available to anyone who has ideas and initiative?
It's really fantastic news to see Google putting a little more weight behind truly open systems… and that they aren't afraid that the next innovator might not be something that they control. Fantastic news, and a refreshing break from some of their peers in industry.
And, besides, 1280x720 video on a mobile phone processor— without any special hardware support beyond color-space conversion— is just freaking cool.
If Google makes the bold move and start serving their YouTube content in Ogg Theora will start real revolution. I know it's going to cost big money to Google, but social benefit would be enormous. Then Google could change their corporate slogan from "Don't be evil" to "Not only: Don't be evil, but actually be Good."
ReplyDeleteThat would be real evolution for the businesses and the world.
nice to see that google helps to push theora. only with a codec everyone can use for free and support in all major browsers for that codec, videos in the web will get the best usage :)
ReplyDeleteSo, one day there WILL be a Ogg/Theora version of YouTube? :)
ReplyDelete@CryptoQuick: If VP8 turns out to pretty much "just" be extensions to VP2 (what Theora is based on), Google could just use this to make a VP8ARM codec in weeks.
ReplyDeleteWill you be able to view youtube videos with a Theora-only device/browser?
ReplyDeleteWhat about VP8?
How does tie in with Youtube's (a Google subsidiary) shunning of Theora in favour of the patent-encumbered h.264?
ReplyDeleteChris DiBona of the Google open source group claimed that "If [youtube] were to switch to theora and maintain even a semblance of the current youtube quality it would take up most available bandwidth across the Internet."
ReplyDeleteThis was shown to be utterly false.
Mr DiBona then mysteriously vanished without trace.
Could he please manifest and either (a) support his claims or (b) concede his error?
If Google really wants to support Ogg, then it could do the obvious thing and put up Ogg video.
Thanks ever so much.
I love google!!!!
ReplyDeleteplease support theora in youtube
video on the web = VLC
ReplyDeleteDoes this mean that Google are not going to release VP8 as everybody has been hoping and praying for? That would be a game changer.
ReplyDeleteGreat news, so will google be supporting the free Theora format on HTML5 Youtube soon? Or sticking to the non-free H264? If there isn't consistency within one company then setting a standard is gonna be a struggle.
ReplyDeletelinux.org as the official site for Linux, give me break...
ReplyDeleteat least link it to http://www.linuxfoundation.org/
or the wikipedia article
Maybe start by supporting Theora for uploads to YouTube? A lot of great OLPC videos taken by children around the world would become available!
ReplyDeletehttps://dev.laptop.org/ticket/4445
Ok, then google must tu support theora on youtube quickly... don't you?
ReplyDeleteI love you guys.
ReplyDeleteToo bad Theora still doesn't compare to h264 (specifically when properly encoded with x264)..
ReplyDeleteUnless it gets massively overhauled.. Google should just start from scratch IMO.
That's great news, who doesn't love ubiquitous video everywhere?
ReplyDeleteDoes this mean we will see You Tube HTML5 using this?
ReplyDeleteTheora can already playback in real time on an iPhone 3GS at native screen resolution, 25 fps, without any optimizations except for the final YUV2RGB stage.
ReplyDeleteHardware decode support is a red herring. I've brought this up many times with various organizations, and once you demonstrate that decoding on a portable can in fact already be done, they admit that it's actually a political issue. It's just a convenient excuse to hide the real reasons.
Still, optimizing decode will reduce power consumption somewhat (but not a massive factor vs everything else in the system e.g backlight), will give some headroom, and is a laudable thing to do in any case.
Thank you for supporting open standards.
ReplyDeleteBravo! Now bring on Ogg Theora support for YouTube.
ReplyDeleteYou know what, this is dandy. Google just up its money where it's mouth is. It's also a sign that ARM is in Android's future. Good signs...
ReplyDeleteBut, the elephant in the room is content. And with that in mind YouTube is king, if this is a sweeping policy within Google then YouTube has to tow the line... like it or not. And so far, I don't think that they have been willing to do so.
So, that is the problem now... how to get Youtube to change tune on Ogg. Because as it stands, it's Youtube (and in part Google itself as the owners of YouTube) that stand in the way.
I know this will take a while, but like the other here, I would implore you to do it....
Thank You google :)
ReplyDeleteBecause Flash is still not proliferating onto many ARM devices, it would be a great situation if YouTube had a fallback option of Theora and we could play video back on ARM based devices, given this work that you're funding.
ReplyDeleteDAvid, compared to later codecs, Theora still uses a lot more bandwidth for a similar quality stream.
ReplyDeleteAt the same time, it was my office that funded this work. We were happy to do what we could to help free codecs on the internet.
Chris, what's Google's road map for bringing open video support to YouTube? Will it be with Ogg Theora, VP8 in Ogg, both, or some other alternative?
ReplyDeleteI wholeheartedly welcome any move to kill any platform-centric technology. The sad fact is that the other king of the Net, Apple, is moving to the opposite direction. I hope Google and others do not give up. I might use Apple products but I am ready to ditch any of their service, while I cannot do the same for Google.
ReplyDeleteThe FFmpeg Theora/VP3 decoder is, I'm told, faster than TheorARM on any reasonably new ARM device.
ReplyDeleteThis is actually the decoder shipped in Chrome, not any derivative of the official libtheora, so I wonder if anyone will really get much use out of this one, besides those that need a BSD-like license.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteso a Java plugin is bad when it comes to Flash
ReplyDelete"Some use embedded Java players, but this restricts you to a viewing audience running on powerful enough devices to be able to decode video and audio in a virtual machine, excluding anything slower than a laptop"
but it's great with Theora, right?
"In fact, on desktop/laptops realtime decode can be managed by an embedded Java player (such as the excellent free Cortado), enabling video playback on browsers still waiting to have video tag support added."
Apple's Maciej Stachowiak has some legal questions about the VP3 patent grant which she posted on the Xiph mailing list. It's regarding some of the subtle wording in the license text.
ReplyDeleteNow that Google owns On2, it would be a tremendous boost to simply publish a watertight patent license for VP3 (i.e. Theora) - that might well help get Apple to support it, and at the least it would help remove this argument against Theora.
Just a simple worldwide/non-exclusive/irrevocable/etc license, along the lines of Sun with the ODF format.
Chris: Its great that you're supporting theora by funding this work, but could you please point to tests that show this supposed superiority of h264 over theora??
ReplyDeleteSo far I have seen 2 experiments which show just that theora is almost indistingishable from h.264 at the same but rates:
http://people.xiph.org/~maikmerten/youtube/
and:
http://people.xiph.org/~greg/video/ytcompare/comparison.html
Congratulations! Your support for Theora is really welcome.
ReplyDeleteIf I'm not mistaken FFMPEG also has native theora support and extensive set of optimizations for ARM, how does this project compare to FFMPEG regarding performance?
ReplyDeleteFFmpeg doesn't have a stable API and ABI, I've been told. So it isn't exactly desirable to use that in case a security issue crops up and it needs to be updated...
ReplyDeleteWith all that I have said put to text, this does make me wonder if Google still has plans to open-source VP8, or if that was the plan at all.
ReplyDelete@Chris DiBona:
You know, I have much respect for you but what you are saying on this subject seems baseless at the moment.
I know you have seen the internal workings of YouTube and how their infrastructure is handled. But this is the second time that I have seen you post "compared to later codecs, Theora still uses a lot more bandwidth for a similar quality stream."
With very little evidence to that.
So I will ask, if it is in your power to do so, please... show us what evidence you have to back up your claim. If you can't and you can explain why you can't, that is understandable.
Because as it stands from where I am sitting, you seem to be pluckling that from thin air every time that the subject comes up.
It seems to me, in retrospect, that Google bought On2 as part of a patent armoury to protect Theora when it's adopted for YouTube. Google's a big target and did not, up to that point, have a decent set of video patents.
ReplyDeleteIn fact, there were probably 2 options on the table when On2 was acquired:
1. "Is VP8 unencumbered enough, or does it have a low-enough infringement surface area, that we could open-source it?"
2. "Failing (1), do we gain enough IP with the acquisition of On2 to protect Theora?"
I'm guessing that (1) failed. Google's sole motivation here is to increase the usefulness of the web across every device.
I think we'll see some input of improvements from VP8 into Theora and then a YouTube conversion to that format.
Actually, latest info is that Google _will_ be open-sourcing the VP8 codec.
ReplyDeleteI suppose Theora is still the backup plan...
http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/04/google-planning-to-open-the-vp8-video-codec.ars
Can't wait for Google IO now.
D
is this just me who notice license change from GPL to BSD-style? original post makes it almost poetic, while those who stay longer in this business know that BSD is used often to create proprietary chunks inside, leave alone it makes possible to stop providing source code at certain point just on deliberate decision by yet-another-manager...
ReplyDelete